- S13 Gearbox out
- Replaced with S14 Gearbox as supposedly it has better lubrication due to the fewer holes in the sandwich plate in the centre of the box (better baffling in essence) compared to S13.
- New Gearbox fluid
- Nismo Sports Clutch Kit [comes with lightened Nismo flywheel]
- Nismo Pivot Ball
After fitting the new box/clutch I experienced a rumbling/vibration noise from the rear differential area upon deceleration when in (any) gear with the clutch engaged. Whenever I dipped the clutch it would disappear. Only occurring when decelerating between 3,000 down to 2,000rpm.
I go and drain the oil out of the box (which was purchased from a wrecker for $800AUD) and found significant amount of metal shards on the drain plug magnet (I've seen worse on healthy boxes/diffs with less than 80,000kms on them but its worth noting nonetheless) - so I assumed that the wrecker had sold me a dodgy gearbox and one of the bearings has collapsed - causing this vibration/judder.
Driving the car on the hoist wouldn't replicate the issue. It required the load/forward inertia of the weight of the vehicle to produce the vibration.
Driving the car on the hoist wouldn't replicate the issue. It required the load/forward inertia of the weight of the vehicle to produce the vibration.
Fearful of being ripped off again, I purchase a reconditioned S14 box from a mob from Victoria called Status Engineering. All bearings replaced, synchros 1st to 4th replaced, built to specs.
Fitted it this morning along with a new spigot/pilot bush - retaining the Nismo flywheel/clutch combo.
I also gave the new tranny a good flush with a few fluid changes and running the car on the hoist.
I also gave the new tranny a good flush with a few fluid changes and running the car on the hoist.
I then went for a drive in good spirit and when replicating the symptom rpm.....
"BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!"
"BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!"
THE FUCK?
While I search on ebay for new tailshafts and differentials, I also read up on Nismo clutches and found this on the Nismo Japan website:
The sports clutch discs and light weight flywheels, which are designed and manufactured to increase capacity for higher output and to improve clutch response, may cause the transmission or bearings to make a rumbling noise which is not present when using the original Nissan production parts. Such noise is particularly likely to occur when idling or when accelerating and decelerating at around 2000 rpm. Please be aware that this rumbling is not due to any defect in the parts.
And also read of various experiences of silvia owners who have installed Nismo clutches and suffered the same issue. Nismo really dampened out the severity of the issue on their website - the issue is much worse than just a 'noise' I tell you that.
From what I gather: The solid state clutch friction disc centre (as opposed to one with a sprung centre) is unable to dampen out resonant frequencies from the engine/differential and between 2,000 to 3,000rpm is the resonant frequency zone.
I can't give you a full review of this clutch as I don't believe I'm running enough power to really test the performance limit of it. I will say this though; the copper mix friction material they use is no bullshit. The maximum torque hold of these clutches is incredible considering how light the pedal feel is. They're a bit 'on-off' when you've just come off an OEM clutch but once you get used to it its fine. But I feel the lack of torsion springs on a clutch kit dubbed 'sport' is a bit too hardcore. I'd stay away for a daily driver. Stick with something with torsion springs on the friction disc for vibration dampening and a more gradual pick up. Just my opinion.
So I pretty much wasted $1600 on a reco'd box and an entire morning for nothing. Lesson learnt? Don't fit solid state friction disc unless your car is a race only car or if you are one hardcore mother fucker who doesn't care for daily driven comfort :)
Peace
PS. agree or disagree, feel free to drop a comment/start a discussion below
PPS. the driveline vibration is increased a significant amount after fitting rear subframe locking collars in.
PS. agree or disagree, feel free to drop a comment/start a discussion below
PPS. the driveline vibration is increased a significant amount after fitting rear subframe locking collars in.
Balls dude. Sometimes you learn the easy way, sometimes the hard way...
ReplyDelete... but what really hurts is learning the expensive way.
Nice car, I just found your page tonight when researching some new caster rods. I'm interested in your take on this, although I expect your recommendation will be to go with the neotechs.
My car is fitted with the dodgy justjap.com "carbon sleeved" s13 tension rods. Looks like the rose joint is worn on one of them and its causing issues in my front end, so I need something new.
The car is no longer a track car, so I've thinking about losing the rose joint altogether, however, I love the way it drives right now...
My options are go with something with a bush instead of a rose joint, get a replacment set of rose joints that fit the current rods, or buy new rods & pillowballs and chuck those in.
Cheers
- Zupa
Excellent looking blog you got here man.
ReplyDeleteNice car too, would like to see it one day =)
I'm also in NSW, but I don't get out to club events and track days like I used to, I'm sure I would have remembered if I saw you ride anywhere.
Mine's a black s13, but I like to think it's a little bit of a sleeper. I like to keep it a bit stealth coz you know what highway patrol is like.
Why don't you tell us your plans for the car? Are you going to track it? Do you drift?
- Zupa (aka Darkhorse)
Cheers Zupa! I pretty much learn the expensive way every time...
ReplyDeleteIn regards to your tension rod question - Assuming you've done all other checks such as sway bar links, ball joints, strut top mounts, etc. and you've determined 100% that there is a fault in the rose joint of your castor rods. You guessed right - I would indeed recommend a set of Neotech's but I couldn't find any on ebay. I've heard good things about Tein rods but they're over $350 - most other brands are a bit of a hit and miss.
Replacement rose joints are an option but it'd be difficult to find one in the same thread pitch, joint size, etc. If you can find a suitable set for a decent price then give that a go. Most are not up to standards though.
Have you considered OEM rods with offset super pro bushes for more castor? You'd hardly feel the stiffness difference between an uprated bush and a rose joint in terms of handling. It'd even pose an advantage in terms of road noise and ride quality.
One thing to note, with rose joint suspension arms of any sort, make sure when you do adjustments that the rose joint is centralised after tightening everything up. A rose joint that is on an angle in its rest position will wear out prematurely.
Oh and goal for this car is outlined on my first ever blog post. You'll need to scroll all the way down to see it though haha
ReplyDeleteEDIT: when I say you would hardly feel the difference in handling between rose joint and rubber bush I mean in a street driving/spirited mountain driving perspective. Circuit would be a different story.
ReplyDelete... all things taken into consideration I will get check everything again and provided I haven't missed something it will be a set of neotechs. Did you get yours locally or from NZ?
ReplyDeleteWith your car, I guess I was asking more specifics, like kilowatts and turbos and other parts maybe :)
I got them from a seller on ebay from NZ. I don't have the seller name any more in my archives though.
ReplyDeleteI haven't had the car dyno'd yet but it goes from 0-100km/h in around 5.5 seconds on street tyres.
Its still running factory management and injectors.
I have a set of S15 injectors waiting to go on. My aim is to run around 200kW to keep things safe with the motor/gearbox. I drive the car very hard so I want it to be able to handle everything that I give it without blowing it up.
You are going to need to max that t28 out then!
ReplyDeleteThat is a good plan for the car. 200 is a sensible goal and stock internals are totally the way to go in a street driven SR, although 10 psi wont cut it on that turbo obviously.
When your t28 dies do you think you will go something else like a disco or 2871 or something?
I'm not sure, I'm totally clueless with what turbo is good. I haven't done much research on them at all! HKS 2871 seems to be the default proven and reliable upgrade aye?
ReplyDeleteOh and I just found neotech castor rods on ebay - they spell it 'caster'. :P
ReplyDeleteCaster seems to be the more common spelling, idkwtf.
ReplyDeleteI don't know about 'default', but is certainly a good choice for a wide range of SR20 applications. The 3071 can make more power with about the same lag as the 2871, but it depends on other factors as well like your cams and manifold.
(also, I thought the disco potato was default, or have things changed in the past 4 or 5 years?)
I have used t25, t28, 2860RS, 2871R, and the KKR330 on my cars. If you aren't doing cams or chasing big power, the disco might be better than the 2871. Of course it's not that simple...
I am using the 2817r at the moment with the .6 housing and .48 trim. I wanted max response so I chose the smallest of each. You can get more power from a .56 or .58 trim and there is a .8 housing also available. Something tells me you want maximum response for the kind of driving you do, so probably best not to go bigger, ie 3071, and stick to the smaller housing.
... but this is on a 250kw SR setup, using stage 1 cams and all the bells and whistles. It lags a touch more than I would like, and I kinda miss my old disco potato for street. (It died a horrible death at the hands of some metal junk that was hiding in my oil cooler after a rebuild, and eventually found its way into the turbo via the oil feed)
...on a 200kw engine like you are building, the t28, if you can make it work, will be the most responsive, it will just run out of puff a little bit in the top end.
I would probably run 18psi until it dies then get a 2860RS, and try to resist the temptation to upgrade the ECU as long as possible, because after you hit 200kw with a T28BB anything else you do is going to be expensive and it only gets worse the more power you chase.
Still undecided about these stupid rods. I had another look and honestly that rose joint is so loose I feels like it must be cracked. Don't suppose you have your old caster rods still? I'm starting to think urethane bushes + stock rods might be a good option since I don't get to the track much any more and my drifting days are basically over. I expected to find stacks on the usual places for sale after people upgrade to adjustable rods, but there doesn't seem to be anything happening at the moment.
Looks like I won't be driving over the break, probably a good thing too, double demerits start tonight at midnight
Very insightful post my man. Thanks a bundle.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking Power FC in terms of management as its proven, simple and I can run two maps for economy sake. I have a haltech E11V2 lying around but I don't think I'll use it. I also have JDM S15 injectors in my toolbox waiting to go on.
I'll see how far I can push the T28. I'm not after outright power but a good power curve that doesn't die off over 6000. I want it to still be inclining like a naturally aspirated car. What is your recommendations with this type of power delivery in mind?
I think I do still have my old OEM caster rods [btw i think caster is the correct spelling I've been doing it wrong the entire time haha]. Let me check the garage in the upcoming weekend and I'll confirm whether or not I have them still. If I do, they're yours.
Just read your post and laughed out loud,
ReplyDeleteI have owned my 180 for 9 years now and had the same noise on deceleration, you do get used to it after awhile and adjust your driving style to suit speaking of that clutch however I just got it looked at today for the first time and it turns out someone in Japan had put the nismo copper/organic kit in and i have been on the same clutch for the last 9 years and upped the power output to 220kw atw during this time. I did not have to change the clutch even as it still has plenty of meat left ,kind of bewildered my clutch guy and saved me 500 dollars in the process only changing the bearing and bush. So I would highly recommend this clutch and you can get used to the vibration.
The nismo clutches are just hectic aye. Just a bit too hardcore for me but if you can manage to get used to the vibes then they're pretty much the best there is.
Deletehey i have the same issue in my 180, i have a exedy hd clutch in my car running standard s13 box its a little fucked but does the job anyway, i just changed the rear subframe bushes from the OEM ones to some new nolithane bushes not solid but much firmer to the originals. i noticed the same noise and you can even feel it on deceleration in all gears but fifth. i have swapped diffs suspention exhausts changed diff oil to 80 w 140 and out of curiosity if itd help same weight oil in gearbox oil helped a fair bit but its still there, flywheel was machined when clutch was changed also. cant get rid of it and need it road worthyed and theyre gonna knock me back every time with it. was thinking of getting a rear strut brace see if that dampens shit, idk.
ReplyDeletehow did you go with your road worthy buddy? clutches with hard springs will transmit vibrations too but that's only one piece of the puzzle. It could be so many things - are the tailshaft balance weights intact?
Deletethanks for sharing such an great post. i really liked reading this post. keep it up.
ReplyDelete